Steve Hall attacking auditors on Indie Scientologist FB group
October 24, 2012
Dear Friends –
I’ve decided that this indeed isn’t the right place for me. I am appalled at the lack of manners by some and seemingly heavy make wrong by a few. This is of course ONLY a few but I find it is so irritating and so unnecessary in my LIFE at this time — that I am going to leave the group. I wish you all well in your pursuit of your path, your happiness and your lives and hope that when the next Indie get-together in Texas or where ever it might be I’ll be able to attend and meet many of you in person. As he said so well — “Happy Trails to You, Until we meet again (Roy Rogers – my old heartthrob as a child) Love, Christine
Like · · Unfollow Post · Wednesday at 9:04am
Ian Waxler, Tara Morgan Bryant and Scott Gordon like this.
Gerlinde Mantey I understand you very well. We really don’t need it, the enemy is out there, not in here. I hope, the dramatizing guys get their ass in session real fast. Good luck for you!
Wednesday at 9:15am · Edited · Like · 1
Ian Waxler Rudeness appears to come out of people rather easy on the internet, but why let it chase you away? Just stand your ground and tell’em to fuck off!
Wednesday at 10:29am · Like · 4
Ian Waxler PS… THEY ARE ONLY “WORDS”?? EH?
Wednesday at 10:29am · Like · 3
Scott Campbell Right Ian, only words. Plus, if you can’t easily experience some part of the Tone Scale, you might have other, bigger problems.
Wednesday at 12:57pm · Like · 3
Roy Selby Another thing I’ve noticed about internet banter, is that there are rarely specifics; maybe the non-specific talk comes under the unwritten rules of “internet manners” if there is such a set of rules. The PL Staff Member Reports shows us LRH’s views on reports and why we don’t speak in generalities; Also the HCOB on Level II “Generalities Won’t Do”. Not that I care a hoot about it, but how is a “culprit” going to correct if even back channel the error of his/her ways in the eyes of the group aren’t pointed out specifically?
Wednesday at 2:28pm · Like · 2
Roy Selby In addition I think a legitimate reason for leaving a group among others would be if one disagrees with the purposes of the group, the goals, etc. Another would be if there were members of the group who are there who share other viewpoints/opinions than what the group founder has set out to be the subject. If the goal of the group, or the purpose, has been tarnished enough IMO it’s time to start screaming specifics or just leave the group. This group is tightly monitored from what I can see, and is kept on course so to speak. The best part is that there are many wins and gains from pcs and students in the Indie zone stated here, along with LRH references and there are few fire fights that really mean anything. It’s gooooood!
Wednesday at 2:50pm · Like · 5
Karen De La Carriere Christine, I would ask you to re-consider. Think of those in the group that value you and you do have a LOT of comm lines here. Please don’t leave. love/Karen De La Carriere
Wednesday at 3:05pm · Like · 5
Gerlinde Mantey Roy, this group is great!!! Just that you get reality, because it might not happen to you: Some of the comments come across like attacks and are really annoying. And the ones who act like that are not hidden, they are known, like Michael Hobson who can’t keep his mouth shut and his charge away and knows best. This is no calm area to communicate and I understand, that one wants just to communicate in ARC, whatever comes up and despite opposed opinions.
Wednesday at 3:11pm · Edited · Like · 2
Sinar Parman Karen De La Carriere, she is already gone and can’t see your comment here. I have PMed her separately.
Wednesday at 3:08pm · Like
Karen De La Carriere Thanks much Sinar.
Wednesday at 3:10pm · Like
Karry Campbell Sorry to see Christine Baranay go.
Wednesday at 5:26pm · Like
Bob Grant That’s very unfortunate … something was missed.
Wednesday at 5:40pm · Like
Karry Campbell Michael Hobson‘s, heart is in the right place. He will always protect this group – till his last dying breath…. Please know that!!
Wednesday at 5:51pm · Like · 1
Bob Grant Karry, I know not of Michael, and my comment is not of him; but that wether or not one would protect the group to their dying breath is irrelevant to their value to the group. History is full of rascals using a group to hide in. My vision of a good group member is one who facilitates comm within the acceptance level of the group. If one reduces comm, there is s hidden agenda.
Wednesday at 6:41pm via mobile · Like · 1
Scott Campbell Let me tell you guys something, this group needs someone as vigilant and conscientious as Michael Hobson. He constantly observes what people are saying and comments on outpoints that are inimical to the group’s survival that he observes in the comm. What’s wrong with that?
Without him here and wearing that hat, this group would have long ago been unmocked by OSA trolls and plants.
We all share that responsibility. Some just feel it is “unpleasant or unsocial to do Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten.” – as LRH says in HCO PL 7 Feb. 1965, Keeping Scientology Working Series 1. Sound Familiar?
Michael Hobson fortunately, is not handicapped by such considerations. And whether any of you realize it or not, he is a major reason why we have continued to expand as a group. In truth, I admire him greatly for how much he cares about this comm line.
For those who want everyone to get along, duplicate each other and cooperate 100% of the time, I can tell you that we haven’t reached that point yet and probably will not until the 4th Dynamic Engram is audited out.
For now, we just have to have a little tolerance for each other and remember some things:
1. Clean hands make a happy life.
2. When you tell the truth, it becomes part of your past. When you tell a lie, it becomes part of your future.
3. No one is beyond redemption and everyone deserves a second chance.
Please remember those things the next time someone comments on something you’ve posted or commented on.
Wednesday at 7:32pm · Edited · Like · 8
Betsy Reppen My husband left this group temporarily because of the obnoxious noise one particular individual was creating…I finally convinced him to come back and just ignore that person afterall it is just one person, don’t let that get to you. Maybe there should be a rule, “If you don’t have anything nice to say, then say nothing at all”. I don’t have the answer, but we are dealing with all manner of tone levels here and we need to rememer this is SOCIAL networking not ANTI-SOCIAL networking, so maybe it is best to keep it social and put ethics in on the drama queens/kings. In other words keep your nasty comments to yourself and if you want to address that person individually then privately message them and have an all out war off off of our lines. We don’t need it as we’ve all gone thru so much with Miscavige and his hitler regime, we need to support each other as best as we can and leave that kind of behaviour behind. My 2 cents.
Wednesday at 9:12pm · Like · 9
Ian Waxler I sincerely question whether the job of a moderator is to BLUNTLY tell every one who makes a post he has a “problem” with that it’s “NOT ALLOWED”… it’s “OFF PURPOSE OF THE GROUP..” …ETC.. one can always look at the intentions and if the comm is not RUDE or ENTHETA.. then why jump on it? As LRH says, “.. the group tends to dramatize STOPS…” Personally I seriously resent someone constantly there SCOLDING… and I avoid contact with such people or groups..
Wednesday at 10:26pm · Like · 2
Scott Campbell After some wise council from Steve Hall regarding how to spot trolls and a recommendation by Karen De La Carriere to formulate some group guidelines for members to abide by, Karry got her Group Admin hat on and things began to settle down.
Some enturbulative people have ultimately had to be removed from the group after persistently flouting the rules predicated in the Group Guidelines. Some others only had to be re-directed to the group guidelines and then self-corrected. Karry has comm cycles going with various members on a daily basis in order to keep the group running smoothly.
The point is that this group is for you guys, the Indie Scientologists who are On Source and In Tech. And Karry does her best to create a safe space where we can communicate to one another. She does this because she loves her true group (you guys) and wants to help them. She receives no recompense other than the pleasure of your company and communication.
We love you guys and want only the best for you. We hope that what is communicated here guides us toward pro-survival objectives. As responsible Scientologists and group members, we also do not ignore responses toward those pro-survival objectives which contain H E & R. (DN & SCN Tech Dictionary)
I hope this communicates my understanding of how Karry must act as Admin of this group.
Thursday at 12:12am · Like · 5
Betsy Reppen HCO PL 30 May 71 MANNERS, “”Good manners” sum up to (a) granting importance to the other person and (b) using the two-way communication cycle (as in Dianetics 55!). Whatever motions or rituals are, these two factors are involved. Thus a PR violating them will find himself and his program rejected.”
Thursday at 1:18am · Like · 5
Betsy Reppen This is a fabulous 3 page PL by LRH and bears noting in this current controversy, it is found in MS 3, pg 34, “People have value and are important. Big or small they are important. If you know that you are half way home with good manners.” “Arrogance and force may win dominion and control but will never win acceptance and respect.” “Ignore people at your peril”, my god there are so many diamonds of wisdom in this policy, read it and apply as I will too. LRH is incredibly wise, please read it and you will win. Karry & Scott I do not envy you in taking on this blog, it can be a thankless task and a non stop one at that, my hat is off to you, maybe this LRH PL can help you in your endeavors in getting people’s Manners hat on. I love hearing the successes of others and lately love those photos Karen is posting! Let’s keep this up!
Thursday at 1:43am · Like · 2
Gayle Smith Scott Campbell I appreciate you saying this about Michael. He’s been getting quite a tongue lashing lately but it IS a risk people who are as alert to outpoints and jump on them take. He’s very consistent in his observations and it IS because of people like him that the tech can continue to expand in the field. If I would have had someone in my org who did for me and our tech team what Michael does for this group – if there had been one in every org – we would not be here having this conversation. We’d all be getting people up LRH’s Bridge and going up that Bridge ourselves within the church as we once knew it. Michael can sound arrogant sometimes and might be wrong once in a while but I’ll take that along with the rest of the good too. Those who are so effected by his manners should look for all of the valuable and informative and theta posts he’s written here and on the blog too…? Micheal maybe you can adjust the spring on the bear trap…? some of them set off hard enough to take off the foot. Your ability to make you point is quite effective even when it’s whispered.
Thursday at 7:23am · Edited · Like · 10
Richard Lloyd-Roberts I had some comments from Michael in my last post. I was NOT offended although Kyle was and left the group due to I guess a longer track record. I thought that it was a little heavy handed in places but if you have the COS and OSA continually trying to unmock the group at this point its probably a good thing. As a group we are still in NON E or Danger and the correct application of those conditions are needed. If someone needs to wear the ethics hat then lets at least as a group develop policy as to how its handled.
Thursday at 8:56am · Like · 1
Karry Campbell Bob Grant, Exactly. The Ethics Book and Vol 1 should be enough to cover it. As Scientologist we should know this.
Thursday at 9:14am · Like · 1
Bob Grant Ethics is done with the view the individual concerned is open to help to self correct, and so is a help flow.
Justice uses s stick to wake the individual up.
Which are we talking about here?
Thursday at 9:19am via mobile · Like · 1
Ian Waxler About 2 yrs ago, seeing firefights with him, I referred Michael to FO 38.. (which I don’t have on hand), but ANY SO Vets know, it refers to PROPER COURTESY…. Instead of getting the point, he argued with me about if it was the “correct reference”? Huh? I have almost stopped reading or posting on this group from his rudeness..Is it NOT conducisve to CREATING A 3RD DYNAMIC. a major part of my goal in the field since 1983! It takes ALOT OF ARC to CREATE A 3D! And carping at others over a post is not a “part” of doing that, it’s just a part of creating dissonance!
Thursday at 9:41am · Like · 4
Richard Lloyd-Roberts Michael seems to have created a bit of an effect doesn’t he.
Thursday at 10:21am · Edited · Like · 1
Steve Hall Imagine a city where a serial child molester keeps stealing children off the playground and molests them. It’s all over the news. That is not the time to put on a trench coat and go hang out near the playground reading a comic book, because you are going to get mobbed by angry police. The moral of the story: Don’t be oblivious to what is going on!
David Miscavige sees facebook as a mortal enemy — this group in particular is marked for extinction. How do I know? Just after I’d secretly launched Scientology-cult.com the Church got Yael Sherlock — an old “friend” from Central Marketing Unit at the Int base — to invite me to a meeting in LA with Tommy Davis. This was late February, 2009. Apparently they were “cancelling” SP declares and “freeloader” bills. I decided to go to give them one last chance. I didn’t tell them it was their last chance. The meeting was ALL ABOUT FACEBOOK — they had print outs of every friend I had on facebook. They had lists of who they wanted me to unfriend and who was “okay.” Imagine that. I travel 1,600 miles for a meeting about facebook? Typical.
Thursday at 10:28am · Like · 5
Michael Hobson Gayle Smith – Thank you. Always working on it.
Thursday at 10:30am · Like · 2
Steve Hall OSA’s mandate is to “break up SP comm lines” — they do it with reverse Scientology — 3P, etc. Sometimes they pretend to be victims of 3P to turn public opinion against key people — which is itself a sneaky form of 3P. Read my documentation (2 articles on scn-cult) on Xavier Jarquine if you want to see an example of this favorite OSA operation. How do I know all this? I worked undercover for the GO for two years. My job: break up SP comm lines. My tools: All the tech in reverse.
I don’t know how all this started, but if someone gets shot by mistake, brush it off, get back in comm and all is well. And people can avoid getting shot by mistake by simply not doing what OSA does. For the most part, we’ve done great with few casualties! We are still here.
Thursday at 10:34am · Like · 4
Betsy Reppen I don’t think Christine meant this to be a bashing on Michael Hobson, neither did I as I find him extremely intelligent and very helpful in many ways. He has been spot on in outing some that join here as OSA plants or anti LRH. Yes sometimes Michael can be a bit harsh, as can I, thus I referenced HCOPL Manners for all of us to refer too but that doesn’t mean where appropriate, some anti LRH OSA needs to be jumped on, so keep up the good work on that.
Thursday at 10:40am · Like · 2
Michael Hobson Ian Waxler Excuse me, please. But what I actually I told you – yes, rather bluntly – was that I am not in the Sea Organization any more and therefore citing Flag Orders – which are policies specific to the Sea Org – is incorrect as they do not apply to me any more.
Since you came at me extremely out-Reality, whatever your intended message was didn’t make it past that Reality-Break, sorry.
Thursday at 10:49am · Edited · Like · 2
Richard Lloyd-Roberts Michael. I think the point being made is ethics gradients. Just punching everyone in the face the moment you decided there is an outpoint isn’t always the answer. That’s the way the Church does it and maybe why most of us left. Nothing wrong with spotting outpoints and correcting them. I am all in favor of that. How about spotting them and getting the group leader to apply a little light pressure to start with.
Thursday at 10:52am · Like · 2
Michael Hobson Betsy Reppen thank you for the above. Yes, I’m too rough or too harsh or too something more often than I would like. I don’t at all mind being told it looks that way when it does.
Thursday at 10:52am · Like · 3
Ian Waxler Ok Michael.. But if you really feel compelled to stop & question so many posts, you need to do it VERY POLITELY or why not just LET IT GO? … a short post is very easily taken as being very unwelcomed, because after all.. this is supposed to be a CHAT ROOM.. not a Qual Cramming Office.. so let’s work on RAISING THE ARC LEVEL PLS??
Thursday at 10:53am · Like · 1
Ian Waxler Well-said Richard.. What’s the big deal if someone throws in a joke or some information on this group? …it’s called the SOCIAL network?
Thursday at 10:55am · Like · 1
Richard Lloyd-Roberts I think if we all take note of steve’s point. There is obvious infighting going on right now and people leaving the group. Anyone have any tech on how to spot the source?
Thursday at 11:01am · Like · 1
Steve Hall Wasn’t it only one person that left?
Thursday at 11:02am · Like · 2
Bob Grant Richard, pm those who left and ask for why? and who?. There is the starting point.
Thursday at 11:12am via mobile · Like · 1
Betsy Reppen IMO, the result of Christine leaving, has fortified the group as some great LRH references have been pointed out (see Chris Black’s separate postings) and some people have been able to air their BPC which is good and Michael Hobson is human after all, lol, he says he can be too rough or too this or too that, I like a man/woman who can own up.
Thursday at 11:16am · Like · 2
Michael Hobson Allow me to put in a little Reality of my own: the Internet is a counterintelligence and propaganda free-fire zone – not just the Church of Black Scientology, but Gerry Armstrong’s faction, Ron DeWolfe’s faction and other factions are conducting their operations 24/7 on the Internet.
Since I first arrived on the Internet and began to stick up for Ron Hubbard and his version of Scientology around 1998, I have been under nearly constant attack from persons who want this subject and our groups *destroyed* – because I interfere with their operations. *that* is the Reality I have lived with and continue to live with on the USENET newsgroups, Ex-Scn Message Board and now Marty Rathbun’s Blog and Facebook.
Steve Hall has posted a good summary of what is going on and what I am dealing with of which some of you seem to be either uninformed, ignorant or completely oblivious. I am disinclined to be “nice” or “polite” to persons out to destroy us and disrupt our groups. Sometimes, I shoot at the wrong person and that is unfortunate. When I discover this or it is brought to my attention, I do my best to unshoot them and move on.
Those of you who are offended with the way I conduct myself, well I’m sorry that you feel offended but I am not on this Earth or in this group to please you. I’m sorry.
Indie 500 #99
edited added: Despite what I wrote above, I am not out to offend anyone, I assure you. All I can say is “I’m working on it.”
Thursday at 11:23am · Edited · Like · 3
Bob Grant Christine has done group a great service; now she needs to be brought back.
I have no history here, but it seems to me the justice hat needs to step in and find if there is a sit, and if so, who and why.
Thursday at 11:20am via mobile · Like · 2
Ian Waxler steve hall…actually…4 ppl to my knowledge left in past week or two…Christine, Mike R, Kyle..[who was added by me]…and Kay, I am adding membrs on an ongoing basis…so I dont even know how many i.ve added here in like 2 yrs?
Thursday at 11:23am via mobile · Like
Kirsi Ojamo Hey number 99, I can’t recall you ever offending me. But I promise to tell you so when you do
Thursday at 11:23am via mobile · Like · 2
Ian Waxler i can tell you however..that ANYONE who has dedicated 5…10….15 yrs im t he SO has my respect as an SO Vet…they should not be brushed off inany way..
Thursday at 11:26am via mobile · Like · 1
Bob Grant Betsy, just as a comment not aimed at anyone.
There is a significant difference between someone ‘owning up’ because they have cognated, and someone ‘owning up’ because they have been caught.
I have no idea what is what in this case as I am new and have no experience with previous postings, but that is how I would view any ‘owning up’.
Thursday at 11:30am via mobile · Like · 2
Ann Cannon Micheal bashed (along with Karry’s blessing) Loren Spethman until he had to leave. Loren was willing to take the disagreement to PM, but Michael kept posting on the thread. With snarling hateful comments after Loren was gone. Loren is a Flag Trained Courseroom Supervisor. If there is an OSA plant, it ain’t Loren Spethman.
Thursday at 11:37am · Like · 1
Michael Hobson ^^^^—— False report as to my bashing anyone. I never make personal attacks on anyone.
The thread in question is linked here for everyone’s inspection:
Edit: Please review the entire thread so that the context of the excerpts Ms. Cannon has posted below makes it clearer what was *really* going on.
Thursday at 11:53am · Edited · Like
Kay Milasinovich Rowe Hello I would like to point out that I never left this group and don’t plan to. I have never felt like I was not able to speak out if I needed to. Karry has been patient with me with my goofs here and there. There is quite a learning curve getting out of something you’ve been in for 37 yrs that wasn’t what it was trumped up to be. I am still peeling off the layers of False Data and having to tweak my op basis now and then when I find I am still operating like a Churchie.
Thursday at 11:48am · Like · 2
Steve Hall That happens to all of us Kay. You are in good company.
Thursday at 12:05pm · Like · 2
Kay Milasinovich Rowe Thanks Steve- I agree I am in good company. No plans to leave this group in the least!
Thursday at 12:14pm · Like · 2
Bob Grant Michael, I went and read the thread. It was your snarky response to Chris’s post that turned a theta comm into what it became, pure entheta.
That’s the basic on that chain.
Thursday at 12:14pm via mobile · Like · 2
Steve Hall Great comment Gayle Smith.
Thursday at 12:22pm · Like · 2
Roy Selby I agree Gayle Smith. Correct importance.
Thursday at 12:24pm · Like · 1
Michael Hobson Bob Grant There are no “sneaky” responses by me to anyone on that thread as I don’t do sneaky, which is what so many people here are complaining about: that I am too loud and overtly aggressive.
Edit – Ooops, misduplication. In any case, my response to Chris Black wasn’t “snarky”, that’s just dub-in. Even Chris Black acknowledged that I was correct about his “preaching to the choir” and took no offense.
Thursday at 12:33pm · Edited · Like
Roy Selby Bob Grant your opinion is most welcome here. However why not label it as opinion?
Thursday at 12:26pm · Like · 1
Ann Cannon Michael, I believe that was “snarky”. And Roy, where else on this thread are opinions labeled opinions?
Thursday at 12:30pm · Like
Roy Selby On a lot of my posts Ann Cannon, and for that matter I consider it an outpoint that some do not label their opinions as such but I did point it out to Bob as he says he’s “new”. Where is the outpoint there?
Thursday at 12:35pm · Like
Roy Selby Should read “On a lot of MY posts.
Thursday at 12:35pm · Like
Kay Milasinovich Rowe Ann, You may consider “blocking” anyone who you don’t want comm/comments from, instead of leaving the group. That is what I did and don’t even see their comments on threads. Keeps in your Code of Honor too on not giving or receiving communication unless you yourself desire it.
Thursday at 12:36pm · Like
Michael Hobson I am claiming Ethics Protection for Number of Efforts to Subvert This Group Thwarted. All those who take exception to my mistakes – noted.
Thursday at 12:37pm · Like · 3
Roy Selby LOL! Nice one Michael H.
Thursday at 12:38pm · Like · 1
Ann Cannon In my opinion, I’m still trying to figure out what he is saying.
Thursday at 12:41pm · Like
Roy Selby I can imagine.
Thursday at 12:42pm · Like · 2
Bob Grant Roy, when I give an opinion, I often label it as such, as I think I have done here on this thread … not sure … I’d have to go back and check. However, if it is NOT opinion, but is fact, such as MH’s comment to Chris being snarky, that is not opinion, it is fact by the definition of the word, ‘snarky’. Roy, I just did go back and check my posts, and I have labelled as opinion two of my five or six posts. Where I didn’t label an opinion ‘opinion’, it was because I considered it obvious it was an opinion.
Thursday at 1:06pm · Edited · Like
Betsy Reppen Michael Hobson, LOL, glad to see you have a good sense of humor about all this.
Thursday at 2:10pm · Like · 3
Alaska Ronn Well I was hoping this was just a ‘tiff and she would come back, sorry to see her go.
Thursday at 2:59pm · Like · 2
Kay Milasinovich Rowe I advise”tempering the lightening with sunshine occasionally”. I know I can be a bit too much myself and jump to conclusions before I have all the data, etc. My mouth is faster than my mind- LOL! On the flip side, I try not to take things too personally and advise the rest of you not to as well. The fact is we are all pretty damn upstat, having seen SNC Inc for what it really is and getting out. I applaud all of us!
Thursday at 3:07pm · Like
Sinar Parman This has been quite a thread! I have PMed Christine and she wanted me to post:
“I really didn’t want it to get to be a big deal – my departure – but I didn’t want to just unsubscribe without a bit of explanation. We all have merit — seriously — even dm in so far as he’s shown us what it means to have a real anti-social personality up close and personal.
” I just don’t really belong in a wholly LRH/Scientology group — I’ve become too eclectic I think, … it is more about my own feelings rather than the individuals in the group.”
Thursday at 3:24pm · Like · 3
Ian Waxler Bob Grant… you used to be a vry ‘low key’ guy on course….I find u make some good points…I dont think bthere is any case where a Scn of good will needs to be blasted out of the group…especially ovr “hair splitting” or semantics?
Thursday at 3:32pm via mobile · Like · 1
Ian Waxler lets make an agreement the bad manners and rudeness NOT BE PART OF POSTS?
Thursday at 3:33pm via mobile · Like
Ian Waxler loren would make the 5th person upset or run off…i suggest we agree to DELETE RUDE POSTS before they become a “thread”…any problem w that idea?
Thursday at 3:36pm via mobile · Like
Sinar Parman Ian Waxler, please read my comment above.
Thursday at 3:38pm · Like
Steve Hall Ian, do you ever post on Marty’s blog?
Thursday at 4:58pm · Like
Michael Moore HCO PL Manners (Can’t find the date but it is in the PR series).
” The original procedure developed by Man to oil the machinery of human relationships was “Good Manners”.
Various other terms that describe this procedure are-politeness, decorum, formality, etiquette, form, courtesy, refinement, polish, culture, civility, courtliness and respect.
Even the most primitive cultures had highly developed rituals of human
relationship. In studying 21 different primitive races, which I did first hand, I was continually impressed with the formalities which attended their interpersonal and intertribal and interracial relationships.
Throughout all races, “bad manners” are condemned.
Those with “bad manners” are REJECTED.”
Thursday at 5:02pm · Edited · Like
Michael Hobson Ian Waxler Kindly forgive me for pointing this out, but I could have sworn you were strongly anti-Censorship from previous comments of yours posted in this channel.
Are you seriously demanding all “rudeness” be censored ?
Who is to adjudicate what is “rude” or not ?
Oh, yes. Ron Hubbard wrote a PL on manners, but “rudeness” was not even a Misdemeanor in “Offenses and Penalties”.
Indie 500 #99
Thursday at 5:07pm · Like
Ian Waxler “Rudeness” definition? Come on.. is that a “trick question..”? You mean you are not sure what is sarcastic, snarky, a put-down, condescending, a make-wrong, an OUT OF ARC comment??? You’re not going to convince me a smart guy like you is “accidentally” making comm BELOW 2.5 on the Tone Scale.. now ARE YOU? LOL! … yeah.. I think it was a ‘trick quesetion’…
Thursday at 5:11pm · Like
Michael Moore Perhaps rudeness is the difference between ‘telling someone they are acting LIKE an arsehole’ and ‘they are BEING an arsehole’.One leads to potential constructive change and the other is simply invalidative and says more about the originator than the person being described as such.
Thursday at 5:16pm · Edited · Like
Steve Hall I thought Michael’s post was on point. The “rude” comment that started this thread was not rude.
Thursday at 5:23pm · Like
Steve Hall Ian, are you part of the Freezone?
Thursday at 5:24pm · Like
Michael Hobson Ian Waxler Pardon me, but you seem to have dodged my question.
You seem to be advocating some sort of Manners Police and/or a Tone Scale Police or some such thing for this FB Group. Given that such a thing would constitute Censorship and you have already vociferously made your position on Censorship very plain, don’t you find that even remotely inconsistent ?
I sure do.
Thursday at 5:25pm · Like
Steve Hall This is bizarre: Here’s Ian Waxler’s first comment on this thread: “Rudeness appears to come out of people rather easy on the internet, but why let it chase you away? Just stand your ground and tell’em to fuck off!” Now you want everyone to adopt a new rule to be polite.
Here is my question: Who are you Ian Waxler and why are you here? Do you post on Marty’s blog? You aren’t on the Indie 500. You don’t even seem to be an Independent Scientologist. Please fill us in. I’m just wondering why you are SO vocal. It looks like an effort to take over the group. That’s what I see. Just giving you my observations and that’s what I see.
Thursday at 5:33pm · Like
Michael Hobson Steve Hall to the best of my knowledge, Ian Waxler is an Apollo trained Class VIII C/S Interned with thousands of WDAHs as far as I know. He was last at CC Int until he left the Sea Org after a major injustice and quit auditing and C/Sing.
He is currently involved with Michael Moore’s APIS group and very anti-squirrel, so I try to respect that, even when he and I have disagreements.
Thursday at 5:44pm · Like · 1
Michael Moore I think it is easy ‘read’ far too much into comments and take things too seriously. Just plain flippancy get more done than anything else you can name according to LRH. Mike Hobson is a good bloke. Ian Waxler is a good bloke. Steve Hall is a good bloke,. Why even I am a good bloke! AND way more handsome an any of you lot.
Thursday at 5:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
Michael Hobson ^^^^——- Perhaps we should have a Handsome Contest to determine the truth of that, Mike.
Thursday at 5:51pm · Like · 1
Kirsi Ojamo I can appreciate a bloke who knows just when to change from tie to boxing cloves….and reverse just don’t give me lines you don’t actually mean.
Thursday at 5:57pm via mobile · Like
Kirsi Ojamo Or are they gloves, dunno
Thursday at 5:57pm via mobile · Like
Michael Hobson Kirsi Ojamo I tend to use boxing *cutters* rather than gloves. I much prefer the tie.
Thursday at 5:59pm · Like · 1
Roy Selby Nicely spoken, Mike Moore. Do clean your mirror sometime though.
Thursday at 5:59pm · Like
Michael Moore What a boxing cutters?
Thursday at 6:00pm · Like
Michael Hobson “box cutter” AKA “utility knife” in reference to the fact that I generally don’t use gloves in verbal dust-up.
Thursday at 6:06pm · Edited · Like · 1
Chris Black Steve, sorry for interrupting (and even sorrier for breaking my own code, for which I will undoubtedly get some Karmic enturbulence, lol), but what does posting on Marty’s blog have to do with anything? Is it some sort of a litmus test? I’m just wondering the relevance of that in respect to the points of your and others posts on this thread. And to give further info on Ian, he was instrumental in helping put on the first Independent Field Class VIII conference/reunion. He’s a good guy, and like you, me, Michael, and others, has an opinion. As always, more communication, not less, is the answer.
Thursday at 6:07pm via mobile · Like · 3
David LaCroix “Ian, are you part of the Freezone?”, “Who are you Ian Waxler and why are you here? Do you post on Marty’s blog? You aren’t on the Indie 500. You don’t even seem to be an Independent Scientologist” Steve Hall
Posting on Marty’s blog is some sort of a credential?
The indie 500 list is documentation of bonifides?
The label “Independent Scientologist” is required to adopt to post a comment here? (fwiw, I’m not an Independent Scientologist, I’m a Scientologist – period)
Ian commented on a long pattern of low toned communication which I and others have seen as well. He appealed for civility and got the above ad hominem in response along with denials and justifications such as defending the groups integrity. Hogwash
FYI, Ian is a class VIII C/S who got away from Miscavige and the rest of the criminals and cowards who took over the church way back in 1983.
His ability to obnose tone levels is not in question.
Thursday at 6:32pm · Like
Steve Hall After he left, what did he do to get ethics in on the Church?
Thursday at 6:34pm · Like
Kirsi Ojamo Where’s Ian?
Thursday at 6:34pm via mobile · Like
Michael Moore If I cleaned my mirror Roy it would see me and ‘Chuck a wobbly’* to use an Aussie term. My handsomeness comes from confidence rather than looks. lol.
*Chuck a wobbly= Throwing a tantrum, ……. usually for a humourous friend
Thursday at 6:43pm · Like
Steve Hall While thousands of people were being butchered in the Church, their children aborted, lives destroyed, what did he or anyone in the Freezone do to get ethics in on the Church?
Have you noticed that Indie Scientology has been around less than 4 short years, but already we’ve made more progress in getting ethics in on the Church than anyone in history? Maybe that has something to do with why we’ve grown so fast. Why we’ve been recognized around the world. Why we are in the news and in the media constantly whereas nobody even ever heard of the kookie Freezone. I say kookie because what kind of “Scientologist” turns his back on thousands of people while they are being butchered?
Indie Scientology is growing for one reason, we are getting Ethics in on the CoS. That’s the only reason — we are doing what is right despite personal cost. The Freezone did not.
Thursday at 6:44pm · Edited · Like · 2
Michael Moore Thanks Mike (re box cutter)
Thursday at 6:44pm · Like
Alaska Ronn All right you guys, take a breath and chill out.
Thursday at 6:46pm · Like
Michael Moore Perhaps I am missing some data, but I don’t see a lot of ethics going in on the church., I see a lot of people leaving the church. But I don’t see any case change on the third dynamic within the church. Miscaviage has not changed. The policy on how the church operates has not changed.
Ethics is going IN in the Independent field from what I can see however. More people are setting up groups, auditing and training. More people are being brought into scientology through the independent field and more CLEARs and OTs are made OUTSIDE of the church than in.
Thursday at 6:48pm · Like
Alaska Ronn It’s the 3D ser-fac and 4th D engram we are all dealing with, and that we have been dealing with (especially the former) for decades at play amongst us, both in and out. Lets peel another layer of that onion fuck off and find something we can agree with………. no?
Thursday at 6:49pm · Unlike · 2
Int Freezone Assoc Ian Waxler is a bona fide APIS member listed on our org board as the Technical Director and certainly contributing to the motion when it comes to activity in the Independent Field. He is a practicing Class VIII Auditor from way back and was recerntly instrumental in getting the Class VIII reunion happening. You can find a page listing Ian’s activity and history at http://independent-scientologists-association.net/ian-waxler.shtml. Ian is also a listed CERTIFIED auditor with APIS.
Thursday at 6:56pm · Like
Kirsi Ojamo For the record, and I’m trying to be as polite as I possibly can, and label it as my own personal opinion – David LaCroix is so 1980s is not funny. Dude, Steve is my brother and he gets out more than you.
Thursday at 6:59pm via mobile · Like · 2
Alaska Ronn It would be preferable, at least to me, if the Int Freezone Assoc would post here as a person instead of a generalized organization.
Thursday at 7:01pm · Like · 2
Betsy Reppen Alaska Ronn – amen! LRH says, “Asserting one’s own importance is about as acceptable as a dead cat at a wedding. People have value and are important. Big or small they are important”. HCOPL 30 May 71 MANNERS
Thursday at 7:06pm · Like · 2
Steve Hall The Freezone guys have been begging for a massive take down for some time, so here it is:
I’m getting a little tired of the few diehard Freezone people in here with their covert disagreements stirring up trouble. The Freezone FAILED because you guys refused to put in Ethics on the CoS and so doing betrayed thousands of people still in the Church who were getting butchered for nearly three decades while you guys quietly went about your business. You should have changed your name to the Slavezone because that’s what your actual VFP.
When I left the Church in 2004 I studied the scene for a solid year (2008) and I found people divided sharply into three distinct camps: 1. the “Scientology is 100% evil” camp, 2. the “Scientology is 100% good” camp, 3. the Freezoners just quietly doing their own thing while inside the Church people were being BUTCHERED because they had made a AGREEMENT with the Church “leave us alone and we’ll leave you alone.”
Freezone SOLD OUT the rest of us who were still in the church. As a result, those people suffered horrifically and their lives destroyed.
After studying the scene for a year, I spoke up LOUD and CLEAR in Scientology-cult, starting in Dec 2008. I didn’t make any agreements with the Church of any kind because I believed in HELPING those still in and the rest of the planet. Marty came online almost immediately thereafter and he unleashed his powerhouse of HELP. As a result we grew fast and overtook all earlier efforts within months. Since then we have enabled an entire landslide of people to leave the Church.
Now here we are with our own Facebook group and you FZ guys are still not participating in the program of getting ethics IN. You don’t post on Marty’s blog. You don’t post on Scientology-cult.com. You don’t post on iScientology.org. You aren’t even on the Indie 500 yet it’s been there for 2 years already. You think what you did was right? It was not. You SOLD US OUT — we who have now created Independent Scientology — you sold us out. You never raised your voice against the Church. While you were having your annual conferences, our children and friends were DYING.
Your entire group is 100% out ethics because you cooperated with the Church. You have no right to be here. Independent Scientology owes you NOTHING. You refused to wear your hats as Scientologists.
You guys feel like you are getting bypassed — good observation. YOU ARE. Get your ethics in and actually JOIN OUR GROUP and JOIN THE HUMAN RACE and we’ll be happy to have you. Keep trying to prove you’re right for being a bunch of skunks and you aren’t going to get anywhere.
Your Freezone stinks!
Thursday at 7:17pm · Like · 5
Bob Grant Something is wrong here.
Chris puts up a theta comm,
Michael attempts to invalidate it.
The attempted nullification is pointed out.
There appears to be a pattern.
Thus is pointed out.
Result, the poster of the attempted invalidation is defended, and those who pointed it out are being attacked.
What’s wrong with this picture?
Thursday at 7:21pm via mobile · Like · 1
Bob Grant Michael … John Wayne … really!
Just look at what you posted; was it an attempt to clarify anything, expand on it, add to it … any theta at all?
No, it was what it was, entheta.
Mike, you misspoke, that’s all.
There are lessons here; if you consider it is your hat to prowl posts looking for red flags, fine. When you see one, note it and keep watching. If you feel compelled to comment to handle it, think about it first. Then, if you feel obliged to step in and comm, it is never wrong or a sign of weakness to do so politely.
Granting Beingnness is the greatest gift you have to give.
Sam my opinion.
Thursday at 7:36pm via mobile · Like
Alaska Ronn I dono Bob Grant, not going back there just now. Steve Hall ‘s post is right fucking spot on though – Jesus holy Buddah, I blew some charge just reading that lot of bit. Truth (and confronting thus) doth speaketh loudly. Wow… damn….. . I think that needed to be said, and Hall said it loud and clear.
Thursday at 7:43pm · Like · 3
Steve Hall Ronn, yes it needed to be said, but honestly I have been trying to figure this out for about 4 years and finally got it sorted out.
Thursday at 7:45pm · Like · 2
Betsy Reppen Steve Hall, wow thank you for that, had no idea about the Freezone. Now I understand. Never took the time to read up on the Freezone as it had the connotation of squirrel and I didn’t have the time nor inclination to dig in any further, so I really appreciate this info. It explains now why you are asking about posting on Marty’s or your blog which I initially thought was nonsequitar.
Thursday at 8:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
Alaska Ronn Sorry Bob, I shouldn’t have even mentioned your post as it was not in my line of thought at the moment. Such is the internet……
Thursday at 7:47pm · Like · 1
Roy Selby Absolutely Alaska Ronn and Steve, as usual you have hit the bulls eye. It’s well known that Freezoners use the very name to turn tail and run from Standard Tech with such departures as Skype Auditing, Auditor holding the Cans, justifying Phone Auditing because ONCE LRH audited someone over the phone in a dior life or death emergency and now it’s perfectly ok to grenade KSW and do what they feel they want to do, rave about it and then call themselves “Free Scientologists. Yuuuuuukk.
Thursday at 7:48pm · Like · 3
David LaCroix So the guys who were bright enough to leave the church 30 years ago, got declared SP for it, went about the business of auditing and training and are now declared SP again (don’t know what color paper the Indie declares are written on) for their omission of “not getting ethics in on the church”? Does that sum it up?
Great historical breakdown. lol
P.S.Steve Hall is the only one who brought up the freezone on this thread derail. Neither myself nor Ian are affiliated with the freezone so it was a complete non-sequitor to the topic of impolite posts and responses.
Thursday at 7:50pm · Like
Alaska Ronn Not correct about Hall, David LaCroix, see my comments above.
Thursday at 7:53pm · Like
Ian Waxler My goal since 83 has been to encourage others to stick to STANDARD TECH… and not allow it to go off the rails, just because no qual or ethics exists to corral it.. The main purpose of the Class VIII Registry and Reunion, set up by Chris and I has beento let people know there IS a Standard and they can become affiliated with that group. We are not part of the Freezone, BUT, I would hope we can PULL them back into the fold at some point.. same with Rons Org.. but only with ARC connections can we hope to do that..
Thursday at 8:04pm · Unlike · 3
Scott Campbell I agree with Steve that a line in the sand had to be drawn against David Miscavige and the Church of Scientology. It takes a pretty high confront of evil to do something like that – and make no mistake, Steve did draw that line in the sand.
Any ethics change that has occurred in the church and it’s public is due in large part to the efforts of Steve Hall, Marty Rathbun, Karen De La Carriere, Mike Rinder and those who support their heroic efforts to get ethic in on the C of S.
And as we all know, where ethics is out, tech can’t go in. These Indie Scientologists are correctly handling what is wrong with Scientology by getting in ethics first. When that problem is handled, then tech can go in on a broad scale and Scientology will truly flourish and prosper once again.
Thursday at 8:13pm · Edited · Like · 4
Gayle Smith David I disagree not only was it sequitor to me but it’s cut through a lot of bullshit. The freezoners have been non-participants to a greater or lesser degree for the entire time Steve has already mentioned. They have in my own experience behaved badly toward the group exiting and blowing the whistle or should I say picking up the bullhorns to let those of us know what the hell was REALLY going on up at Int. I’ve had exchanges with many of them who are argumentative and condescending and ridging and ser facing on Marty, Mike, Steve and the bigger guns in this movement because why???? They need to not only wave the white flag but cease to behave as though they pissed on the fire hydrant first so get the hell back. Some of you on this thread do not have the benefit it seems of knowing some of the history there is to the independent movement. It cannot be overlooked. I agree with Steve 1000% that the Freezoners need to get on board and start behaving as though they care about LRH’s Scientology and the AIMS of Scientology and less about what Marty or Mike did to them back in the 80s. If you guys haven’t noticed they’ve been doing everything RIGHT to right any wrongs they may have committed so would you please acknowledge that and get with the program!!!!!!!!!! I too have done some research over the last 3 years and what I found to be true as well was articulated beautifully by Steve. We all share responsibility in the failure of the cofs. We all have more to do to achieve our personal goals to realize the improved conditions for us all and those we love. Shall we do it together??? I say YES!!! But don’t expect reasonableness in any form from me if you are going to attack those who are DOING something to protect this group.
Thursday at 8:07pm · Like · 4
Chris Black “The Freezone” and “Freezoners” are generalities. State “WHO” here you are speaking about, Steve Hall, Scott Campbell. Alaska Ronn, Gayle Smith. Who are these “Freezone guys” with their “covert disagreements” and who “failed to put ethics in” on the church? Just so there’s no ARCXs over generalities, nor any MWHs. Thanks.
Thursday at 8:17pm · Like · 1
Alaska Ronn Chris Black… huh? The generality and unknowable is – Int Freezone Assoc.
Thursday at 8:21pm · Like
Kirsi Ojamo I’m only guessing what may have started David’s sneer and contempt towards Steve. Boggles the mind though. I like it when Steve gets up on stage, and speaks to the world. Perhaps David’s got a bad case of stage fright? I know I’m no good in front of millions of people but I’m not hanging Steve for it …
Thursday at 8:23pm via mobile · Like · 2
Chris Black Ok. I saw that post of yours. It just seems that more are being talked about than just that group. That group is founded by Michael Moore. It went through a name change a few months back to distance itself from the “Free Zone”, coined by CBR back in 1982. Most of the “FZ” is indeed a wild, wild west. This was at the urging of Roy Selby and myself. It is now named the Association of Professional Independent Scientologists. I don’t know why it comes across still as IFA unless it can’t be changed. Trey Lotz is a staff member; Ian Waxler is as well. Roy is HES, I’m OES. There are others. Michael can provide the link, if necessary. It just seemed that Steve’s “take down” was a bit more of a broadside and then you and others supported that. I like dealing in specifics as it makes it easier to identify and then blow any charge.
Thursday at 8:27pm · Like · 1
Chris Black One other thing I do know as well – any upset or charge or seeming firefights usually depend on much earlier (i.e., track) incidents for their charge. The hard thing to do is to rise above all that and not play that game. It’s a chore, I find. IMO.
Thursday at 8:28pm · Like
Alaska Ronn A huge part of the equation, Chris Black is we don’t need or want yet another disorganized squirrel group telling people what to do with Standard Tech.
Thursday at 8:30pm · Like
Scott Campbell You’re right, Alaska Ronn. Int Freezone Assoc is Michael Moore. I’ll get Karry to straighten that out right away. She’ll PM Mike and just remove it. Soon!
Thursday at 8:30pm · Like · 1
Gayle Smith Chris for me this is what Steve did is to get us further back on the chain.
Thursday at 8:30pm · Like · 1
Betsy Reppen “3. the Freezoners just quietly doing their own thing while inside the Church people were being BUTCHERED because they had made a AGREEMENT with the Church “leave us alone and we’ll leave you alone.” Can anyone refer me to who these original people were that made this agreement with the Church?
Thursday at 8:32pm · Like
Chris Black Hi, Alaska Ronn, ok, I’m confused. What “disorganized squirrel group” are you talking about here? APIS (formerly IFA)? If you could give a bit more info so I can understand your comm, thanks.
Thursday at 8:35pm · Like
Steve Hall That is the operating agreement of the Freezone.
Thursday at 8:37pm · Edited · Like
Roy Selby Gayle Smith you are very cool. i mean that in a very good way. You are absolutely right. I left the church in 82 and was completely caved in about it, thinking there was no future for many years. I re discovered Scientology in the FZ 7 years ago, and thought there was no solution to Standard LRH Tech. I began auditing at the encouragement of another, to whom I am grateful, but I found it very hard to survive in a world of I considered (and I emphasize “I”) considered out tech. Luckily I found out about the then IFA, Michael Moore and Chris Black. Chris has CS’d for me and put me on a good track to Pro LRH application after a very long time out of the church. Did I feel that life was at an end when I left the church? Yes. Do I feel like it now? Definitely not. Marty, Mike R. and lots of others are delivering a fatal blow. I don’t know a lot of the new guys but I am behind them as a fellow indie all the way. And you Gayle are a part of this.
Thursday at 8:37pm · Like · 2
Bob Grant So, I guess the comm re: best way to handle errant posts is over?
Was there any resolution?
Thursday at 8:38pm via mobile · Like
Michael Hobson Bob Grant One thing I am very well known for on the Internet is not only admitting when I’m wrong, but posting corrections and/or retractions when I have discovered that I am – often before others even notice the mistake.
If I say that my comment to Chris Black was not “snarky”, it was not. If you continue to push it, you are engaging in harassment.
Indie 500 #99
Thursday at 8:39pm · Edited · Like · 1
Chris Black Steve, again a generality. Who is “everyone”? Who are “you guys”? Personally, I’ve never been in “the Free Zone”. I understand your comm, and the charge behind it, but I don’t understand who it’s directed at, SPECIFICALLY. If it’s “the Freezone” in general, perhaps it should be directed outwards, not inwards to the good people here?
Thursday at 8:38pm · Like
Roy Selby Alaska Ronn I suggest strongly that you look up the APIS/IFA Website and stop talking about something you are not informed of. No one is telling anyone how to deliver the tech except LRH. And a few lame Freezoners, which the APIS IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.
Thursday at 8:39pm · Like · 1
Chris Black Bob, Michael, I’m fine with it. C’mon. Group hug?
Thursday at 8:40pm · Like · 3
Roy Selby Chris, you of all people KNOW who Steve is talking about. If you want to expose specifics, I invite you to do so. Itsa private list.
Thursday at 8:41pm · Like · 1
Michael Hobson ^^^—– Maybe what we all need is a Death Metal Band and a Mosh Pit to work out our aggression or something.
Thursday at 8:41pm · Like · 1
Chris Black Lol. I hear nerf bats are good, too.
Thursday at 8:42pm · Like
Roy Selby Well Michael Hobson, that oughta end the string!
Thursday at 8:43pm · Like
Michael Hobson ^^^—— do you mean “thread”, yeah, I suppose
Thursday at 8:44pm · Like
Roy Selby Yeah, nomenclature.
Thursday at 8:45pm · Like
Chris Black Hi Roy, I’m a little dense tonight. Our teen-aged daughter ran away from home a few nights ago – still not home. So we’re a little pre-occupied. Sorry if I’m not duplicating well enough. Right now I’m not sure who is being talked about. I hate being bandied in with a lump sum generality when it’s not true.Generalities ARCX people. Personally, I did my stuff and nailed GAT and DM early on. But if it’s people who do internet auditing and Power over the phone and don’t follow the basics on auditing or CSing and take someone all over the grade chart, or run NOTs on Clears or NOTs to resolve OT III or attest someone Clear because of their eyes, or who self-attest OT VII (all these are true, and only a microcosm of what I have run across), then those, yes, shouldn’t be directing anyone as to what standard tech is. I agree with that. But if it’s APIS or a few unnamed individuals on this list, I just wanted to know what was meant.
Thursday at 8:46pm · Like · 3
Chris Black Ooops. ok, rope. Someone mentioned rope earlier. String, thread, rope – a rose by any other name….lol
Thursday at 8:47pm · Like
Michael Hobson Chris Black Oh, geez!! May the Powers that be watch over her.
Thursday at 8:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
Richard Lloyd-Roberts I’ll follow Kay Milasinovich Rowe‘s advice and just completely block people that are too entheta. Click, dial tone, next
Thursday at 8:47pm · Like
Gayle Smith You guys are funny and it’s great to catch a laugh in this but and yes there is a but . . . there is a wall that has to come down. I think the benefits to us all are just too damned great to pretend there isn’t. Chris you do know who better than anyone as you’ve worked closely with many. I guess it would make me feel very cared for if you could take away from this thread a decision to approach those you know and one by one handle them so they let go of the ridge and throw their shoulders to the wheel the IS turning on the blog or should I say THE blog and we all know that’s Marty’s blog. Personally I’d LOVE to see the big guns from the 80s speaking out in their own names in support of the overall motion and give us some of their own experiences.
Thursday at 8:47pm · Like · 1
Michael Hobson Alaska Ronn To the best of my knowledge, APIS/IFA are Good Guys(tm) upholding Ron Hubbard Brand Standard Tech. Please don’t jump on them.
Thursday at 8:49pm · Like · 1
Roy Selby Chris, sorry about your daughter, and I know the feeling. As you know I too have a daughter. She ran away from her mom at the age of 12! Ended up at my place in Seattle. Three days we looked, worried, etc. She did turn up. So will yours, you have my postulate on that. As for the FZ, Gayle has a good point, but possibly omitted data. I as well knowthe people who are railing against LRH Tech, using it to justify what they’re doing as aforementioned. Let’s talk privately about it though.
Thursday at 8:52pm · Like · 1
Kirsi Ojamo Chris sorry to hear about daughter, lets get her back and let us know she is ok.
Thursday at 8:53pm via mobile · Like · 2
Alaska Ronn Indeed tragic Chris Black, above all else… sorry to hear.
Thursday at 8:56pm · Like · 1
Alaska Ronn Please do let us know what anyone may be able to do.
Thursday at 8:57pm · Like · 1
Michael Hobson Anyone present who has influence in the spirit realm, please use it to help Chris Black get his daughter back.
Thursday at 8:58pm · Like · 2
Gayle Smith Christ Chris sorry to hear this. Keep us posted.
Thursday at 9:01pm · Like · 2
Kirsi Ojamo That will rule out the freezoners
Thursday at 9:01pm via mobile · Like
Chris Black Thanks, Roy. I’ll let you know what transpires on that issue. Gayle, I understand. I’ve been working quite a bit on that, but eventually, one has to make the decision themselves as to which side of the fence they are on. I never gave up my allegiance to LRH and his tech. That is my one sole allegiance, and everything else is an agreement to support or help. One problem is, there are so many factions outside the CoS, it’s not just a “Us vs. Them” proposition. There are the original people who left, some as early as 1979, a lot in the early 1980s. There is the CBR camp, RONS Org. There are the wild and woolies like those who claim to be Class XII and aren’t, those who audit above their level or support Skype auditing, and there are the recent “Indie movement” (I’m also on that one, somewhere below #300 on the Indie 500). So one really does need to differentiate in order to identify the “whos”. The why is usually just MUs and overts (Cycle of an Overt). Anyway, an interesting thread to say the least!
Thursday at 9:01pm · Like · 2
Alaska Ronn it seems we may have a disagreement Michael Hobson, which is fine in and of itself, but lets clear it up. To the best of your knowledge? And what would that include, please be more specific. If you’re going to nail me for generalities, which I’ve been quite vocal about herein, please clarify.
Thursday at 9:02pm · Like
Gayle Smith lol Oh Michael I get it!! and yeah I put out my anchor points intending to contribute to the “contact your worried parents now”
Thursday at 9:03pm · Like · 1
Chris Black Thanks, everyone. It’s funny, and some might say it’s coincidence or serendipitous, I think it’s all you good guys with your good postulates, but my wife just called and said our daughter had texted her and was willing to maybe come home. So good news!
Thursday at 9:03pm · Like · 10
Chris Black Now, we gotta do the same thing in Scientology. That was easy, hey?
Thursday at 9:04pm · Like · 2
Gayle Smith Oh my fuckin’ god – this stuff WORKS! Ok so all those in favor of using the postulate power to unite and heal and get effective communication going between the 80s and ’00s postulate it NOW. xoxoxox and I do mean xoxoxoxo
Thursday at 9:06pm · Like · 4
Betsy Reppen Can you imagine if this kind of free communication were happening at Int? And what they would talk about? How much charge could be blown?
Thursday at 9:07pm · Like · 3
Kirsi Ojamo GREAT, now I can hit the hay, signing out.4am in France.
Thursday at 9:08pm via mobile · Like · 1
Michael Moore Just checking in on my mobile. Glad all is sorted with your daughter Chris.
Thursday at 9:09pm via mobile · Like
Gayle Smith You didn’t just pull some jedi VIII mind trick on us all here did ya Chris?
Thursday at 9:11pm · Like
Ian Waxler Yeah.. it’s what we call a “Scientology coincedence”… ? …or the power of positive postulates maybe?
Thursday at 9:11pm · Like
Michael Hobson Alaska Ronn I wasn’t “nailing” you this time. I even said “please”.
As to where “the best of my knowledge” comes from? (1) The information on the APIS website regarding membership and standards, (2) the traffic on this FB Group of the last two years wherein Michael Moore, Roy Selby and Ian Waxler have demonstrated non-tolerance and non-support for Ron’s Org and others who squirrel, (3) the PC success stories from APIS members posted here over the last two years or so.
Thursday at 9:12pm · Like · 4
Bob Grant Hey Mike, peace. We have too much to do. We may disagree on somethings, but we agree on all the rest.
Thursday at 9:13pm · Like · 4
Michael Hobson Bob Grant fine. No hard feelings.
Thursday at 9:14pm · Like · 1
Chris Black lol, Gayle. I knew you were going to say that, and the Jedi’s are my fantasy heroes! lol. No, cops are involved. Looks like she’s meeting my wife somewhere and then hopefully she’ll come home. Then the cops will pop by to talk with her. She’s been staying with someone who is 20 – Madison is 15!
Thursday at 9:16pm · Like · 2
Chris Black Ian, yeh. That used to happen a lot! That’s the power of OTs together. Thanks, guys. First hurdle done, now there’s the handling!
Thursday at 9:18pm · Like · 1
Alaska Ronn Feel free to nail me anytime Michael, been there done that routine for 30+ years… it ain’t no big thing no more, including you.
Thursday at 9:18pm · Like · 2
Michael Hobson Chris Black Good Lord, I hope nothing untoward occurred.
Thursday at 9:19pm · Edited · Like · 2
Chris Black Just so everyone can go to bed, she’s on her way home, in the car with my wife. She’s been missing (although we knew she was still in town) since Monday night, so 3 days and nights. Thanks again for the postulates, prayers, kick-in-her-theta-pants. It worked!
Thursday at 9:19pm · Like · 7
Michael Hobson BTW, maybe you should have told us sooner. I’m not sure whether that would have gotten her home any sooner, but it couldn’t hurt.
Thursday at 9:21pm · Like · 2
Chris Black Michael, well, we’ll find out.
Thursday at 9:22pm · Like · 1
Chris Black Yeh, if I could have gotten my mind working. I was firing on one cylinder. lol.
Thursday at 9:22pm · Like · 4
Roy Selby Chris, everything will turn out well. I applaud you for keeping your cool on your daughter, and all of those who worked in theta to lassoo the young lady. Remember Chris, she has a mind of her own, and doesn’t think to far into the future.
Thursday at 9:26pm · Like · 1
Betsy Reppen Mike & I walked the landmine of teenage hood successfully, if you want any tips PM us.
Thursday at 9:45pm · Like · 3
Chris Black Thanks, Roy. And thanks Betsy. I may take you up on that offer. She’s home now, but in a “fine state”! Again, thanks everyone for all your postulates. And sorry to have hijacked this thread/string/rope. Catch ya all later.
Thursday at 9:47pm via mobile · Unlike · 6
Steve Hall Okay, back to the thread. Chris Black, I find it incredible you say your teenage daughter ran away from home, yet you are wasting time posting on this site? If my daughter ran away, I’d be out looking for her, not posting ridiculous statements on facebook. Are you making this up to derail this thread? I think so because frankly I don’t believe anyone could possibly be that dense. You are unreal. And as for your comments, “I never gave up my allegiance to LRH and his tech. That is my one sole allegiance, and everything else is an agreement to support or help.” Yes, exactly — that is the exact problem. You just stated your out ethics. What about the rest of us still in the Church trying to figure out what is going on? What about your allegiance to the human race? I’m talking about YOU, Ian and your do-nothing buds in the APIS/Freezone/the-human-race-has-nothing-to-do-with-me club. You are not “Independent Scientologists,” you ARE Freezone aka no responsibility to handle the Church and get in ethics we don’t care what happens to everyone else.
You say, “there are so many factions outside the CoS” The whole lot of you are out ethics because you weren’t doing jack all to get ethics in on the Church, meanwhile the rest of us were still boiling in the witch pit. And in that regard, you personally, the AIPS, the Freezone, Ron’s Org are all pathetically out ethics.
Quit trying to prove you are right to do what you did. It wasn’t the optimum solution.
Yesterday at 12:40am · Edited · Like
Steve Hall Now that we are doing the real work you want to coast along on our coattails? Still dramatizing the same out ethics? I see no ethics change from any of you. You haven’t lifted a finger to get ethics in on the Church or David Miscavige. Why aren’t you in your own AIPS facebook group? Answer: Because no one wants to join an out ethics group.
Yesterday at 12:42am · Like
Steve Hall You, Ian Waxler, Michael Moore — everyone of you is off purpose. The loyalty of a Scientologist is to the human race. That’s what Scientology is all about.
Yesterday at 12:44am · Like
Ian Waxler Ok Steve Hall.. Let’s assume your eval is correct… and that we are doing a feeble job at best… crawling up the conditions to reach for Confusion? Rather than taking pot shots… why don’t you give us some plans.. or even ideas.. or even suggestions on HOW WE ARE TO “GET IN ETHICS” on the C of S? Mayo had just about as fine a group of super upstats at the AAC & was wiped out.. We had a real Indie field WITHOUT benefit of the friggin INTERNET! Yeah. we made PHONE CALLS & sent out stuff with STAMPS & attained more success than ANYTHING since.. but I am open to criticism because our goal was to REFORM SCN & obvsiously, we DIDN’T WIN…
Yesterday at 12:55am · Like · 1
Steve Hall Are you completely unaware of Marty’s blog, Scientology-cult.com, freeandable.com, iscientology.org, and the Indie 500? Have you not seen any of the vast media all over the world such as the Truth Rundown in the Tampa Bay Times, articles in New York Times, New Yorker, Us Weekly, etc., etc. too many to list? Have you completely missed the interviews on CNN, BBC, ABC, Nightline, etc., etc.? Look, I’m not on here while really being in another group. You guys are not Indie Scientologists. You don’t even know what the words mean!
Yesterday at 1:08am · Like · 1
Steve Hall It’s not just about delivering standard tech to a tiny handful of people meanwhile the CoS shuts down the entire Bridge for the entire world by black PRing the Scientology tech and philosophy and you do nothing. And also meanwhile thousands of people in agony trapped in the cult with no idea of what they can do or where they can go as an alternative. The optimum solution would be to expose the out ethics, corruption, criminality and abuses meanwhile while establishing an alternate way for people to move up the Bridge and if you fail, keep on trying until the day you die and then come back and keep trying some more until you are successful. As it is, the job turned out not to be too hard to do. You guys all had a head start and still you didn’t do the job. I came out of the SO in 2004, barely even knew what the Internet was, didn’t know how to use a cell phone, didn’t know how to send an email, and I figured it all out and stood up by myself as a Scientologist because there was NO other Scientologists doing it and started exposing DM’s crimes on Scientology-cult.com which I built myself after figuring out how to do it. Suddenly Marty also showed up and he was doing the same thing. Now we are thousands strong and the Church is imploding violently. Then we launched iScientology.org to give a community-based alternate structure to the Church so people can still get up the Bridge. And as I sit here being dev-ted by you and your friends, I’m actually working on another pieced of that infrastructure. Ian you wrote to me and said I hadn’t heard of you because I wasn’t around back in the 1980s. The hell I wasn’t. I haven’t heard of any of you because you had absolutely ZERO presence on the web because DM beat your asses and you went into hiding instead of refusing to quit and fighting back for the sake of Scientology, for the sake of the human race, and for the sake of all those still trapped in the cult’s living hell.
Yesterday at 1:18am · Edited · Like · 1
Roy Selby So Steve, what can we do to help?
Yesterday at 1:22am · Like · 1
Steve Hall It’s 1:19 AM and there are still 166 people online right this minute reading Scientology-cult.com. It’s been like that for almost 4 years, man. Do you know how many people I’ve gotten out of that crap-shit Church? You could have started at any time doing exactly what I’m doing. And what am I doing? Applying Scientology. Auditing out the group engram. Building a multiple-viewpoint-system to enlighten people on what really happened to the Church, and dispelling the planet-wide black PR on the tech — because they think the Church is evil because of the tech. But on Scientology-cult.com and on Marty’s blog they discover it’s evil because there is a wolf in the hen house.
Yesterday at 1:23am · Edited · Like · 2
Karen De La Carriere Activism comes naturally to me. Perhaps I am more purpose driven because Heber is still in lock down and was not able to see Alexander one last time in the last 3 years of his life because DM rules supreme. No one magic bullet is going to end Scientology incs maniacal grip. It is death of 1000 cuts….slow bleeding.
Yesterday at 1:27am · Like · 6
Karen De La Carriere Here are some suggestions ~~
Yesterday at 1:27am · Like
Steve Hall You bunch of pretenders could have started in the year 2000, 4 years before I even left the Church, blowing the whistle on the Church, in which case I would have joined your group! But you don’t have a group to join. You have a failed mission because you guys did not understand or were too timid or whatever to speak up that the Church is corrupt.
I wouldn’t even be saying any of this, but you three or four people keep coming around here and bumping into us with your covert disagreements, wanting us all to recognize and salute APIS/Independent Freezone.
My friends Marc and Claire Headley sued the Church and STOPPED the practice of forced abortions. I personally printed my Freeloader bill for $82,000 in the Tampa Bay Times and that STOPPED the criminal practice of stabbing Sea Org veterans in the back after 20 and 30 years of service. We are winning right before your eyes and you guys can’t even see it because of your failed purposes and overts of omission.
You should go to iScientology.org and read this article: http://www.iscientology.org/resources/essays/rebooting-scientology
Yesterday at 1:30am · Like · 3
Karen De La Carriere Write letters to the editors of your local papers in whatever city you are in and encourage Media articles, encourage interviews with Steve, Marty, Mike, Karen even YOURSELF if you can take the leap.
Ask your local radio and television stations to air shows on Scientology Inc and make it known the public wants to know what is going on..
Write to the IRS criminal investigation Division. Send them images of Tom Cruise pimping Sea Org members for his slave labor to build his beautiful hangars and beautiful matching motor bike to DM/ All images available in google images.
Work to engage local churches or place of worship with education that Scientology INC is using “Religion” and “Church” to give all Churches a black eye in the law courts…
Yesterday at 1:32am · Like · 4
Steve Hall As LRH says (paraphrased) there’s absolutely no excuse for failure anywhere on the track. There is only a failure to persist. The Indies aren’t the “new group” we are the fiercest mother fuckers DM ever ran into and we are going to finish him period as we’ve done many times before throughout history, and then restore THE BRIDGE TO FREEDOM IN FULL. LRH says the ONLY serious PTS situations are due to a “known before this life time” situation. So who is DM that the entirety of Scientology — every person in it — went PTS to him? I’ll tell you who he is: dead meat.
Yesterday at 1:36am · Edited · Like · 4
Karen De La Carriere I have a copy of LRH advice which I am willing to scan ~~ it is written on how to attain a Position of Power. …Here’s a snip..”Bring order and permit growth and prosperity to good forces (8 dyn formula
Yesterday at 1:36am · Like · 6
Karen De La Carriere “Bring order and permit growth and prosperity to good forces (8th dynamic formula) and END bad forces (reverse 8th dynamic formula) ” LRH In any case one gets the idea that it is 4th dynamic hat to also handle the evil, not just hobbyhorse in safety comfort zones…
Yesterday at 1:39am · Like · 5
Steve Hall Roy in about 2 days I will have an entirely new thing everyone can do. You will see it announced on Marty’s blog. In the mean time you can start following Marty’s blog. Read Scientology-cult.com. Promote yourself on Freeandable.com. Read iScientology.org. Actually start posting your observations on the crimes and abuses of DM and his supporters who have nearly obliterated Scientology in our lifetimes, on our watch! We have to act or it all will be gone! That can’t happen. And you can sign up if you haven’t already on the Indie 500 to help break the back of disconnection. Help others to understand what is happening here. Help get more people out of the Church. There are lots more things that can be done, but that’s a start. We need your help. The overriding principle as Karen said is put in order. That is how to defeat chaos — right out of the old Volunteer Minister’s Handbook. DM and the CoS = chaos.
Yesterday at 1:44am · Like · 6
Roy Selby Yes. I read Marty’s Blog almost every day. Just because I don’t post every time I read it doesn’t mean I’m there. I’ve been to Scn Cult many times as well. We can all back up Marty any y’all in many ways. Thanks for the kick in the butt.
Yesterday at 2:15am · Like · 4
Kirsi Ojamo Karen, Steve, you’ve correctly pointed us the altered importance some of us find comfort in. At LEAST we can knock off covert/overt ops against Marty, Mosey, Mike, Steve, Karen, Amy etc which I see still unbelievably happening. See David the Scientologists, not Independent, comment above for reference. If you still hold dear the idea DM is off target please do yourself a favour and don’t embarrass your ancestors outing the density in here. Saying DM is of no consequence is like talking about dinner plates and ignoring what’s on it saying no one cares. Do all you can to back them up and figure out what else can be done to directly aim the right target. Maybe then we have a chance?
Yesterday at 4:19am via mobile · Like · 2
Chris Black Steve, sorry, but you don’t know your arse from…what was that saying? Please don’t assume anything about me. And frankly, talk about out-ethics – how out ethics is it to position “Scientology” and “cult” in the same url??? So please, don’t lecture me and don’t assume you know what I’m about or what was occurring with the daughter scene. You f***in don’t know. You’re just dramatizing your own BPC. What have YOU done to not support a group?
Yesterday at 10:31am · Like
Roy Selby I’ll stand with Chris Black on his comment about accusations, Steve. Not really a good example to use to make a point. If you knew Chris at all you’d recognize your comment as a contrary fact. More basic, you said a particle moved when it didn’t. I won’t honor any efforts to communicate any rightness on your part about the comment, which is a personal matter, a 2D matter. One dynamic is no more important than the other, unless it’s fixated upon. Also, you are implying that those who are NOT activists but are concerned and contributing by forming groups, auditing, etc. are Freezoners, etc. I know who I am, and I know what my intentions are. Before you EVER got into Scientology I was in the Sea Org, etc, dedicated to LRH and actively fighting daily battles against the developing infamy that is upon us now. I personally am willing to do all I can to help, but I believe if you just asked it would have settled better. APIS, by the way, is doing a LOT to help the cause of getting technology in the field. You are not looking, are not in comm with us. No more accusations, please.
Yesterday at 10:39am · Like · 2
Steve Hall Some people may think I’m being a tad too harsh on these Freezone guys. They have been running a line on us for some time. Sample: here’s what Michael Moore posted on Steve Poore’s announcement of resignation from the Church and joining Independent Scientology: “President — Michael Moore 2012-09-30 18:51 Congratulations Steve for having the courage to step out and confront the isness of the Church and welcome to the Independent Zone.”
Sorry, but this is not the “Independent Zone.” This is Independent Scientology. What did the Freezone ever do to get in ethics on the Church? Nothing. They keep doing this subtle gamesmanship on all lines, especially on facebook. It’s their hidden agenda (disagreement) to convert all of us into coming under them. They are out of PT. They are getting bypassed because they failed to do what we are doing: exposing the corruption in a full-on direct frontal assault despite all RISK despite the REPERCUSSIONS, despite the DEFAMATION and LIBEL, despite their DIRTY TRICKS, despite EVERYTHING. Their Freezone did not do any of that that.
Hey, there’s no anti websites run by the Church on Michael Moore, or Chris Black or any of these guys to my knowledge. There IS on me, Marty, Mike, Karen, Robert, and many more Independent Scientologists who had the COURAGE to speak out.
So this little 100% bullshit game needs to end. They need to get honest and straight with us and stop pretending. Independent Scientology is here for them if they want it. Their Freezone took no risk, and didn’t do the job. They only confronted HALF the job which was to keep delivering. Half the job is not enough to win against the Church and rescue the people still trapped in inhuman conditions and free the tech from the horrific reputation DM has created.
Yesterday at 10:42am · Like · 1
Roy Selby I don’t give a tinker’s damn how “harsh” you are Steve, I’ve been Bait and Badgered by way better than you. I will call myself what ever I want to call myself be it Independent, Freezoner, or any other label I wish to assume. And I will fight for LRH Tech and what I think is the in ethics thing to do. You and the above mentioned by you have done way more than MNYMANY of us here, that’s a fact. Your point is to get some others to grow some balls and help against the evil people headed by David Miscavige who now run the church, and it is well taken. I have taken your advice on what to do to heart. I know how to produce a product. And I know who my adversaries are both on a personal and group basis. Again, thanks for the wake up, but no more of these generalities about what people ARENT doing. No way to get a product, and a very important one at that.
Yesterday at 10:54am · Like · 1
Chris Black Look Steve, I understand you’ve done a lot to forward the “Indie” momentum. That’s quite admirable and to be respected. There are many ways to forward the momentum. People are also needed to build up a network of standard tech practices so that people exiting can continue to move up a standard LRH tech Bridge. Just like in an org you have registrars to reg people, HCO to bring order and put in ethics, the public divisions for broad dissemination to new people, and of course, tech and qual people to wear the hat of getting people up the Bridge. They work in conjunction and hopefully in harmony with each other to accomplish the basic purposes of training and auditing people so they have a chance to live a better life. It would be suicide for auditors and C/Ses, and indeed a host of other tech and admin posts, to stop what they were doing to fight the screaming dogs nipping at the wheels or to opp-term with the CoS. They need to get on with solidifying and building a sustainable Bridge outside the CoS. It’s not all attack, attack, attack. So when you begin to lump all these good terminals together, and call them names, and accuse them of overts they haven’t committed, well, it’s just not right. I understand your charge, really, but that doesn’t make it ok to do what you’re doing here, IMO. Anyway, you are right on one thing for sure, this is Dev-T for me and off-purpose. I’m trying to help people who have left the church realize there’s still hope and still a Bridge. That’s a pretty good purpose, I think. So I’m done with this. As I said first up, I was in for some “karmic enturbulence”. All the best, C.
Yesterday at 10:58am · Like · 1
Steve Hall Now the actual CI is coming out from Chris Black and Roy Selby. I said they had disagreements and there they are. Know best, enemy lines — right there. These guys have been in our midst all this time. They don’t get what we are doing.
Yesterday at 11:03am · Edited · Like
Roy Selby Jesus. Never thought I’d hear that from you, Steve.
Yesterday at 11:04am · Like
Kay Milasinovich Rowe Something I realized long ago is that no matter what our specialist hat is, we each have a team member hat. And with the unbelievable out-ethics and High Crime activity that has been going on non-stop for well over 30 years in the Church of DM each of us has a responsibility to expose this. The estimation of effort is indeed great and this is one of the most valid- all-hands, call-to-arms actions. Refs on this are: HCO PL Conditions, How to Assign as well as the Org Board and Livingness-( in that each of us is responsible to wear all the hats of our own personal org boards too). I am glad this is getting aired out as it needed to be, even if there have been some “harsh” words.
Yesterday at 11:10am · Like · 1
Steve Hall You guys don’t get what we are going. We are doing BOTH. We are getting in ethics AND starting groups, and centers and a whole new community-based structure. You aren’t dealing with my “charge” — I’m getting your ethics in because you guys keep wanting us to recognize that you were here first. Yeah, you were here first, and didn’t get ethics in. How is Tech supposed to go in over out ethics? WTF? You guys didn’t wear your hats AT ALL on getting in Ethics. So knock of this incessant know best and continual subtle effort, welcoming people to the “independent zone” and posting comments from your “International Freezone” icon to PR the Freezone or APIS. I didn’t do a lot to forward the Indie momentum. Marty and I conceived of a solution and we started the Indie momentum. There was nothing before that. No Scientologist was overtly doing anything to get in ethics on the Church.
Chris Black you are so confused with enemy lines from the Church you don’t even understand the landscape of reputation out there for the Church and for the Tech. Scientology is by survey the lowest regarded religion on the planet. They are below atheists. They already think it’s a cult and have for years. In Dec 2007, I found that the #2 most popular search phrase on the subject of Scientology was “scientology cult.” That is what people Googled. And all that traffic was going to entheta sites like Clambake, Xenu, ScientologyKills, etc. That’s why I named it that. To intercept ALL that traffic. Now guess who in less than 1 year climbed from total obscurity to #1 for that search term and who is getting out the truth to people?
Then you have the nerve to say to me, “how out ethics is it to position “Scientology” and “cult” in the same url???” Listen punk, you don’t know anything about marketing or how to fix the problem.
Scientology-cult.com went from nowhere to #1 out of more than 9 million search results. Your crap website didn’t do that. Noone reads it. I’ve had over 2.2 million hits on Scientology-cult in less than 4 years. There are 196 people on that site right now as we speak, learning the truth — that the Church is a cult but the tech is spectacular and useful.
I guess it is lost on you that the black PR is on the tech. And the source of the black PR is the hostile actions of the Church. There is no black PR on the Church — it IS a cult. People assume the Chruch is vicious because the tech is vicious. When you explain to them that the problem is a wolf in the hen house, they get it and then they are happy with the tech and actually reach for it.
Yesterday at 11:31am · Edited · Like · 2
Peggy Mitchell Steve, I love you and love what you have done for all of us, but I have to disagree with your comments here. All LRH asked was for us to help. I believe each of us must choose our own path. I do not see Chris’s comments as CI, but as a valid choice. Maybe you have a lot of data that I am missing, but I have personal experience with Chris when I was “under the radar”. Marty sent me to Chris and he helped me. My son in the SO accused me of the same type of thing you are accusing them – that I wasn’t helping the church, but just nattering on Marty’s blog. I have never even posted on Marty’s blog, even though I have read every post since the beginning.
Yesterday at 11:31am · Like · 1
Steve Hall You guys are out ethics. Roy, if you are part of that group, you need to get their disagreements out in the open, sort them out, so we can all actually get on the same page.
Yesterday at 11:33am · Like · 1
Gayle Smith HCO PL 20 AUG 1982 ORGANIZATIONAL BASICS
Yesterday at 11:34am · Like · 1
Steve Hall Peggy our comments are crossing each other. I got what you are saying. You aren’t coming on here and trying to subtly convert us all to APIS. They are. That’s why this flashback.
Yesterday at 11:35am · Like
Roy Selby I don’t see that Steve, personally I haven’t done that thing you say, trying to convert people to APIS. You are correct in that there is no ethics in the Freezone. And, the mere fact that there is still the International Freezone Logo attached to the comments from APIS and that APIS posts under it’s logo rather than by representative is non optimum. I will work with you to help get it straight.
Yesterday at 11:49am · Like · 3
Kay Milasinovich Rowe What is coming through loud and clear for me at least, is that we all need to get in the same page. The exodus from Scn Inc would expand immensely if we did so. Also, those who have a gripe on Marty for his past (which was expressed very strongly in a group I used to be in) need to come to PT. He has more than made up the damage!
Yesterday at 11:49am · Like · 1
Steve Hall Kay, exactly right. We all need to get on the same page and if we do, the power will much greater. Actually I like all these guys, I respect them tremendously and know they are helping. But they should not be here to recruit people out of Independent Scientology. It’s not “counter intention” it’s “other determinism.” We are making it safe for them and everyone to operate. If they would get their ethics in, we could promote them on our websites and send them pcs. That will soon be happening in greater quantity.
Scientology-cult has had over 2.2 million visits. Marty’s blog has had even more. Why don’t we link to the AIPS website? Because they have not shown me that they are really on board with our program of getting in ethics on the correct SPs while we ALSO see to delivery and break the CoS monopoly on the tech.
I can send them pcs. We need more tech resources. However, I’m not going to do that until I know we are on the same page. That means they need to understand what we are doing and where we are going and what is being sacrificed to make this happen. They each need to be not just paying lip service to us, but actually get ON BOARD.
Yesterday at 11:59am · Like · 4
Karry Campbell I must say that I did not expect to see the continuance of such a contentious debate on this thread.
One thing I’ve come to realize over the last couple of months after leaving the Sea Org back in 1994 is that until someone who has left the church has gotten “cleaned up”, he or she may not be as in PT or effective as they otherwise would be.
That is why I feel very strongly that Indie Field Auditing and Training are an important contribution to our motion in handling the out ethics situation in the church.
For almost 18 years I had really lost my ability to laugh at things that were funny. I knew that things were funny but for some reason did not laugh at even the most ridiculous situations or humorous observations by others. Since going to see Trey Lotz and getting off the tremendous BPC generated by my Sea Org experience and literally helping my husband Scott narrowly escape death at the hands of Sea Org members (I had to beg Griffy Blythe to intervene by getting her to understand that the guys who were “handling” Scotty, if left unhandled, were actually going to kill him!). Fortunately, she “got it” and managed to get those guys removed before they did kill him. By the way, one of Scott’s “handlers” went on to become David Miscavige’s personal body guard immediately after Griffy had him and the other guy removed.
Needless to say, I was pretty turned off on Scientology and the church by the time we finally “escaped”. It wasn’t until Scotty found Steve’s website and got in comm with Marty that we had any hope of handling this situation. We’re doing fine now and I am once again able to laugh out loud at humor and find fun in rejecting situations deserving of ridicule with humor.
Regarding this thread, in my opinion we need Ethics, Tech and Admin. LRH says that people are good at the things that they have the least amount of overts in – so some people are born warriors and revolutionaries – and we need them to help get ethics in. At the same time, some people are good at Auditing and Training – and we need them to help people become more able. Others are good at organizing and administering groups – and we need them to keep the show on the road.
I say, whatever your hat in life is, wear it. At the same time, if something is not your hat in life but nevertheless deserves your support, go ahead and support it the best you can. We’re all in this together, but we don’t have to (nor should we) all wear the same hat.
And in case you are wondering if I’m qualified to legitimately state this opinion, I was the KTL/LOC lead sup on the Freewinds. My delivery team was the first to complete at ITO (for the release of KTL and LOC during the 1992 Maiden voyage anniversary on the Freewinds) and we then had to get the other English language delivery teams through before firing back to the ship for the release. So I know of that which I speak.
My two cents.
Yesterday at 1:18pm · Edited · Like · 6
Kay Milasinovich Rowe Well stated Steve. How about it guys? Let’s all come together here on the same page and wear our ethics hat too! There is a huge backlog to handle I can assure you!
Yesterday at 12:04pm · Like · 1
Kay Milasinovich Rowe I might add, get your students and PCs to join the Indie 500 and you get on the list too!
Yesterday at 12:05pm · Like · 1
Steve Hall Karry, darn right it’s important. Without delivery we aren’t dealing with the entire problem. You just saw the release of iScientology.org. There’s something else coming and I’ve been working around the clock for over a month on these two projects to get them done. We are putting in various things to handle these functions on the cycle of production and org board. Getting in Ethics was just the START, a brutally necessary start, but it’s not even the most important part. The rest can’t be done without it. But the rest has to be done and that means RELAUNCHING SCIENTOLOGY and reopening the Bridge on a complete bypass of the Church.
Yesterday at 12:05pm · Like · 6
Roy Selby I agree re; Marty. No one has done more and risked more than Marty for all of us. And I probably don’t know the half of it. .
Yesterday at 12:07pm · Like · 4
Kay Milasinovich Rowe As far as I am concerned, Marty has ethics protection and anyone who bashes him is severely out of PT to say the very least. I frankly do not consider anyone a friend of mine if they are on a “crush Marty” campaign.
Yesterday at 12:10pm · Like
Kay Milasinovich Rowe If by chance anyone here has a bone to pick with him, I suggest you get in comm with him directly and do a Doubt formula if the situation calls for it.
Yesterday at 12:12pm · Like
Roy Selby I want more information on what your working on Steve Hall. If it involves delivery and organizing for same I want to know about it. It is my field of expertise.
Yesterday at 12:17pm · Like · 2
Peggy Mitchell I am new to this group and would normally have kept my thoughts to myself, but 2 of the few people I have personally met were having a disagreement and it hurt me to see it, as I joined Scientology to make a better world. Seems like the discussion is moving toward a more positive outlook and I am happy to see it.
Yesterday at 12:28pm · Like · 3
Steve Hall Every month Roy, 1.2 million people Google the word “Scientology.” That is a river of people. Not one drop of that river is getting onto the Bridge in the Church. I am doing some engineering to divert that entire river into our front door and up the Bridge. But before you divert a river, you had better have some structure in place for that river to flow. So I have been putting that structure into place so it has somewhere to go. You have been seeing some of the pieces appear one by one. Freeandable.com — where any field auditor can list for free and pcs can be sent there to find auditors near to them. They can even search by zip code. Then you just saw iScietonlogy.org, our flagship site for Independent Scientology where people are going to learn about us as a group. There are two more giant pieces I’m putting into place that will come before those the others do divert that river and drive people into our delivery resources so they can move up the Bridge. But as LRH said in a Flag Order, do not “let the enemy in on our operations” So I can’t brief everyone on exactly what I’m doing. What you can do is help me by getting your friends all on the same page, where should be. Chris Black doesn’t even understand the strategy of Scientology-cult.com?
Yesterday at 12:33pm · Like · 5
Sinar Parman Interestingly enough, I found that a couple of those people who have disagreements with Marty have not signed up on the Indie 500 list, and so perhaps are riding along on the current Scn reformation movement.
Yesterday at 12:35pm · Like · 3
Kirsi Ojamo I’m happy to repeat this for the duration …..Scientology-cult, Steve’s amazing create and data base, was such a healer for me that I’m not even going to try and describe the magnitude now. You get the idea. If you like the truth, you like scientology-cult. No, you drink it like you would drink after spent decades in a desert without water. They said Clearwater, but it is undrinkable murky water…
Yesterday at 12:48pm via mobile · Like · 4
Roy Selby OK thank you Steve for the information. I will work this out with those concerned.
Yesterday at 12:57pm · Like · 1
Kay Milasinovich Rowe That is so awesome Roy! It makes this whole long thread worth all of our efforts.
Yesterday at 12:59pm · Like · 1
Kay Milasinovich Rowe United we stand- dived we fall.
Yesterday at 1:00pm · Like · 1
Kirsi Ojamo Thanks everyone. I think this thread has been live on Karen’s postulate to get Ms Christine back to the group …. she back yet?
Yesterday at 1:22pm via mobile · Like · 1
Karry Campbell Kirsi Ojamo, I’ll contact her.
Yesterday at 1:23pm · Like · 1
Kay Milasinovich Rowe You are very welcome Kirsi. But even if Christine doesn’t come back, the live comm here has gotten a good product!
Yesterday at 1:24pm · Like · 1
Chris Black Steve,
I’ll start this off by first apologizing for anything I may have said or indicated that upset you. Obviously I haven’t duplicated you correctly or understood you as I don’t believe we’d be opp-terming right now if I had.
Having said that, and I do mean it, I would like to point out some things:
I mentioned one thing on this thread, re whether posting on Marty’s blog was a litmus test of allegiance or something. You attacked both Ian Waxler and myself, Class VIIIs. Ron talks about that on the VIII course, specifically in Class VIII tape 13, Ethics and Case Supervision. You stated that I was lying about my daughter as I would be dense to be sitting at home and on FB while she was missing. Not that I have to defend myself, but for your information, my wife was out looking as she knows this area better than I as well as where our daughter might be or with who. I was at home watching my 5 year old son and 3 year old daughter and liaising with the police by phone continually. I hope that clarifies why I was at home. FB provided some relief from this other stress.
You accuse me of out-ethics and being still clouded by “church-think”, yet you come across in a heavy-handed ethics valence, much like the current CoS does. You allude that I (or APIS?) am trying to subtly convert everyone to APIS??? and suggest I/we are covertly posting as “IFA”? I hadn’t really noticed those posts. And I certainly am not trying to convert nor subvert anyone here. Look at my posts. Am I coming off as against this group? If so, handle as per LRH, with ARC and Understanding. (Ref: Model Hat For An Executive) I easily correct. As far as posting, I only post as myself. In fact, when it was brought up, I quickly indicated who that was so it was known, not hidden. Again, I’ve never posted under that banner, only Michael Moore has.
Steve, if we had put the comm formula in in the first place, I believe a lot of this would have been avoided. For instance, no, I didn’t know why you had named Scientology-Cult that. Now I understand, after your explanation. So thanks. I appreciate that understanding and now can see its value. Conversely, you don’t know what I have been doing to strengthen the Scientology field outside the CoS. Many do, though, so if you want, you can ask around.
I’m willing to say truce on this and for us all to work together. I’m willing to support and throw my weight (intentions and postulates) behind this as well. I’m not, however, willing to be bashed about and falsely accused. My goldenrod declare for taking DM and GAT to task back in 1996 has enough of that already. I’m also not willing to opp-term with you or falsely accuse you either. I believe, therefore, that what remains is in-ARC. How does that sound to you?
Yesterday at 2:02pm · Like · 6
Karry Campbell Chris Black, Thank you. I can’t speak for Steve but I totally got your comm. I’m in comm with Michael Moore and we’ll get that group name changed or remove it from the group. Mr. Moore can just post as himself.
Steve is a good guy, who plays this game for blood.
That being said, I’d like to cram both of you on HCO PL 22 July 1963, “YOU CAN BE RIGHT”.
I’ve always been of the opinion that a truly intelligent person can change his mind upon the receipt of new information.
Yesterday at 2:17pm · Edited · Like · 3
Chris Black I know, Karry. Thanks for that. We are all playing the game, sometimes just different hats. Re Michael, that sounds like a good plan.
Yesterday at 2:18pm · Like · 2
Karry Campbell Thanks Chris, I expect to hear back from him soon.
Yesterday at 2:23pm · Like · 1
Gayle Smith HCO PL 20 AUG 1982 ORGANIZATIONAL BASICS
“An organization consists of coordinated purposes, lines and terminals. That is all (in italics) it consists of.
‘To be viable, it must have a fair and valuable exchange with an area outside its perimeter in a volume adequate to its needs. ‘To expand, it must strengthen its purposes and increase its lines and terminals and multiply its exchange above the rate of its consumption.
‘When you have understood this fully, you will understand all groups, companies, societies, civilizations, countries and empires.
‘Such rise or fall in direct relationship to how well they meet or fail to meet the first three paragraphs above.
‘And when you fully grasp the basic definitions of organization and are trying to build, make viable and expand one, you will be very hard on anyone who is discoordinating or blunting the purposes, damaging or omitting the lines and is disestablishing the terminals. You will understand exactly what that person is doing. He is seeking to make the organization less viable and trying to contract and destroy it. So know your enemies.
‘And when you see somebody trying hard to build your organization up by following the first three paragraphs, you will know he is your friend and help him all you can.
‘It is very well to clear off all confusions by doing the first three paragraphs in clay. Then you will have, if you master it, many things clarified. And you can not only understand what makes a slum a slum, a good society a good one, why one area is poor and another opulent, you will also have acquired the potential of creating or helping to create a far better life for all.”
L. RON HUBBARD
Yesterday at 2:24pm · Like · 2
Gayle Smith What I have discovered in my own research is that there absolutely needs to be willingness of the CSes in the Indie field to communicate to each other to separate the trusted technical terminals from the actual squirrels. We need agreement to put ALL squirrels on notice. The squirrels are defined as those auditors and CSes who say they are delivering Scientology services and are not. They are instead are delivering invented technology or grossly altered technology. A squirrel is also an auditor who believes he can program and CS his own cases without any CS training justifying their long term overts with CS Series 1. Examples of squirrel activity: “I know you’re 70 years old but maybe you picked this body up when it was older and that’s how you are a last life time clear who has never run an engram on your NED program” or “you don’t need your next Bridge step what you need is Excalibur” or “you don’t need OT I” or how about the auditor who tries to audit a pc while he’s sleeping! – the time for the ethics to be put in on the tech resources is now. Give them an opportunity to get honest and straight, to get correction, word clearing FDSing etc after O/Ws and conditions. And if they don’t want to because “we don’t have to do that stuff out here” then pass their names along to the CSes you do know and trust. We don’t have to have an org to have the hat of the Snr CS ORG SENIOR C/S Purpose: “To help LRH ensure that the results of Scientology are obtained.” HCO PL 7 Dec 1971 IV CORRECTION DIVISION PURPOSES, IDEAL SCENES, PRODUCTS STATISTICS.
Yesterday at 2:42pm · Like · 2
Gayle Smith We CSes ARE the ones LRH trusted the tech to and we ARE wearing HIS hat as CSes so lets live up to it, get in comm, check egos and personal needs for correction aside and figure out how we each can help each other. I KNOW you have data Ian and Roy and Michael that will help me be a better CS and I can say the same to you.
Yesterday at 2:44pm · Like · 1
Gayle Smith I have no doubt that there are a few of you who feel you have done this and don’t need me to step in and say so. This is the fact – I NEED me to step up and communicate. I have not found any semblance of a tech hierarchy in the field. This was a bit of a shock as I thought I’d find one and they would make it easy to find them. I can tell you it isn’t. I was NOT going to the Freezone for this as I already knew too much about the reasonableness that I found there. If you core guys here are willing to open up your arms and embrace a veteran in myself who wants to make auditors and get pcs up the Bridge then bless your hearts and lets pool our intelligence, experience and wisdom, please.
Yesterday at 2:59pm · Like · 2
Kay Milasinovich Rowe Hello Gayle, Your comm is awesome and I feel your services and input are vital.
20 hours ago · Like · 2
Kirsi Ojamo Hear hear Gayle.
20 hours ago via mobile · Like · 3
Steve Hall Gayle two great posts in a row. I have a solution coming that will “eventually” automatically detect and expose squirreling in the field at a grass roots level. I know an auditor who has run into two pc’s from the same Freezone auditor who both were ex…See More
20 hours ago · Like · 5
Bob Grant In my opinion, Steve’s outburst was a psychotic rant. He attacked for no reason two Class VIII C/S using generalities and false assumptions, insinuated that anyone who didn’t do what he thinks they should have done or be doing as enemies to LRH.
19 hours ago · Like
Betsy Reppen “I have a solution coming that will “eventually” automatically detect and expose squirreling in the field at a grass roots level.” Love that Steve. Take note to those of you who are squirreling – you will be exposed, so time to get it straight now before that happens as PC’s/students will stay away from you in droves.
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Kay Milasinovich Rowe I am with you 100% Steve. Price of Freedom! I will drive the stake in as often as needed to free beings!
19 hours ago · Like
Steve Hall No Bob Grant, I attacked for good reasons that are written into the very policies Gayle Smith has copied into this thread. “Class VIII” doesn’t make someone in ethics. It is a help flow to get ethics in. Now Michael More just posted a sadly noble note …See More
19 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1
Chris Black I recently found this reference and find it quite true and useful: “THE ONLY THING THAT WILL FLOW, THE ONLY THING THAT WILL COMMUNICATE, THE ONLY THING THAT WILL ESTABLISH AN AGREEMENT AND A REALITY IS THE ARC TRIANGLE: UNDERSTANDING, AFFINITY, REALITY…See More
19 hours ago · Like · 1
Bob Grant Steve, I applaud all that you have done, for all of us, but you DID use false assumptions and generalities to attack two Class VIII C/Ss.
19 hours ago · Like
Bob Grant You have no KRs that I know of indicating that Chris or Ian were out ethics.
19 hours ago · Like
Betsy Reppen Gayle Smith, maybe you can start a Snr C/S Round Table or something
19 hours ago · Like · 1
Bob Grant The idea of some kind of tech hierarchy whose purpose is to help the Indy field keep on source is VITAL. I support the notion utterly, and am willing to do what I can to help. I will not support however, any witch hunt. Correction would have to be on a standard LRH type of line.
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Michael Hobson Steve Hall has is speaking from a survival viewpoint with regard to taking responsibility for Darth Midget’s Church of Black Scientology.
Many of you reading this may not be aware that in May 2010, Russia – the country were Ron’s Org has the biggest …See More
19 hours ago · Edited · Like · 3
Kirsi Ojamo Oh Bob…
19 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1
Bob Grant Chris, quite true.
19 hours ago · Like
Chris Black Steve, thank you for your comm. While I do not agree with all of it, I appreciate the comm and increase of ARC. Personally, I believe much of what occurs is a result of mis-understanding, mis-duplication, mis-identification, mis-obnosis. All the “misses”. ARC, C.
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Kay Milasinovich Rowe And Bob, As for psychotic rants, Steve’s behavior is angelic compared to what I experienced in the group I recently left. The group leaders condoned one of their friends using a fake identity to stir up animosity towards Marty, Mike and Steve and made me wrong for not going along with it. Two comm threads, non-sequitar and entheta. At least Steve has all his cards on the table and is not shadow boxing.
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Bob Grant Steve, on your iScientolgy site, you comment on how life is ‘help’, how the dynamics are ‘help’, something like that. It really struck me, and I’ve been looking at existence via that view. It is an entirely new view for me, exciting. It can change a life.
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Steve Hall Chris, good reference. However sometimes reality is ugly. When it is, it’s not always pleasant to confront, but it is reality. I’d rather have an ugly reality than a nice pleasant unreality.
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Bob Grant Kay, yes, Steve’s cards are there to be seen, a plus point for sure.
19 hours ago · Like · 3
Betsy Reppen Steve, do you mind if I copy and paste what you said about long term plans for dealing with squirreling in the field on Marty’s blog (your name will be referenced)? I think that could act as an Ethics gradient for those contemplating squirelling to st…See More
19 hours ago · Edited · Like · 3
Steve Hall No Betsy, don’t post it yet. Let me get the project completed and then I will announce the whole thing on Marty’s blog.
19 hours ago · Like · 3
Michael Hobson Oh, and one more thing. Steve Hall actually gives a flying f*ck about all of us. Otherwise he would not be bothering with all this. And the same goes for me.
19 hours ago · Like · 5
Steve Hall Thanks Michael. I slept 3 1/2 hours last night because as I said I am working around the clock to get this next project finished for Independent Scientology. I don’t get paid for any of this. For iScientology.org I worked 215 hours in 12 days. On the n…See More
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Bob Grant Steve, is there anything a tech vacuum like me can do to help? Maybe research some subjects …
19 hours ago · Like · 1
Bob Grant By ‘tech vacuum’ I mean I don’t know squat about websites, and very little about how to navigate around barriers on the net.
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Bob Grant But I can Google!!
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Steve Hall Bob, there will absolutely be something major you and all techies can do once I launch the project which hopefully will be in the next day or two. Right now I’m trying to debug some design problems…
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Bob Grant Cool. Just call.
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Steve Hall By the way, I get very testy and short tempered when I’m tired, incase that blows down for anyone.
19 hours ago · Like · 4
Kay Milasinovich Rowe Hi Steve, I would like to help too. You know how to reach me.
19 hours ago · Like · 1
Kay Milasinovich Rowe Me too! OMG- hell hath no fury compared to me with out-body ruds!
19 hours ago · Like · 1
Bob Grant Steve, means we are of the same species.
19 hours ago · Like · 1
Sinar Parman Steve Hall, totally understand – it’s like being in “Event” mode all over again, except this one is for the right cause!
19 hours ago · Like · 1
Bob Grant None the less, things were said that should be unsaid.
19 hours ago · Like
Kirsi Ojamo Omg Bob…what now. Don’t say it.
19 hours ago via mobile · Like · 3
Kirsi Ojamo Steve I don’t mind thunder, that happens naturally after a long period of lull.
19 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2
Kirsi Ojamo I mean us lulling around
19 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2
Karry Campbell I knew that was the case, Steve. I just didn’t want to eval tired. It’s ok, we still love you now matter how tired, testy and short tempered you get.
Now get back to work! No case on post!
18 hours ago · Like · 6
Luis Garcia You are the man, Steve.
16 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2
Alaska Ronn I don’t find anything need be unsaid. This thread is child play compared to what an Org or even Mission staff member lives through, much less what SO Execs in the hole are still living daily, moment by moment. Even though I’ve been gone unofficially …See More
16 hours ago · Like · 6
Kay Milasinovich Rowe I found it inspiring as well and now want to do more!
16 hours ago · Like · 2
Alaska Ronn TY Karen :–)
12 hours ago · Like
Ian Waxler Seems strange to be getting ‘lectures on ethics’ after 25-30 yrs now, so maybe some folks need to recall we ALREADY fought the first serious battles, circa Mayo, et al… (for about 10 YRS.) & I do not recall any of the current Indies even around? Nope…See More
12 hours ago · Like
Alaska Ronn Come on Ian, chill out. When I was on staff – all of the 80′s – I heard nothing of the freezone. Heard nothing of the freezone throug the 90′s or even 2000′s for that matter. I gave up a military career for staff and could go on, but for what I was …See More
· Edited · Like
Alaska Ronn lol Michael… I’m not even sure what that means, but it was funny.
16 hours ago · Like
Bob Grant Ian, you are right: few here, if any, know what it was like to be out and utterly alone, no comm lines to any of like mind.
When I left, about10 years afteryou, ’92, I was isolated with no comm. A couple of years later the internet began to buzz. That’s when I first knew there were others and how to get in comm. It revitalized me.
You are a pioneer.
7 hours ago via mobile · Like